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I haven't read the snobs objections to which you refer in this rant. . .
. . . and I haven't been to Southern since it was in Devore,
but
In my never-to-be-humble opinion, the audience is what matters. The SCA has no audience. They do their events for themselves. That's all well and good, but it means they don't have to take the audience into account. SCA and ren faires are different animals.
Ren faires are about entertaining a crowd that pays admission & buys goods which support the event. Among other things, I play music at the faires. With the exception of Greensleeves & some madrigals, NONE of the music at faires are period. Even if the lyrics are from that time, the music wasn't recorded until a century later at the earliest. We present an image to take people out of the present & give them a feeling of the past. It's impossible to dot every "i" and cross every "t". The information just isn't there. Even in instances where it is, it's not always desirable. We are not presenting a dry history lesson, we're presenting a renaissance THEMED entertainment.
That being said, the history snobs keep us honest.
The renaissance was a fascinating time in history, with dynamic changes going on in the arts, sciences & world culture. That's why it took off as a theme for an entertainment genre in the first place. There's plenty to draw from that is interesting, entertaining and instructive about the period. It's the snobs that keep us from being a "tie die fair" - from going off the deep end. There was an episode of Futurama where they went to a year 2000 fair. Wild west cowboys on rocket horses were going on a brontosaurus round up. Many renaissance fairs have become just that. Those fairs are copies of LHC's original Renaissance Pleasure Faire. They are what they are, but the audience that grew up on the original is more sophisticated than that, and they crave an escape from the troubles of this modern time. I remember that painful ad campaign that had print ads saying "The man show began in the 16th century", and the radio spots that had the surfer dude saying, "There's beer, & boobs & babes!". They played to a lowest common denominator that wasn't the California audience & wondered why the attendance kept dropping & eventually bailed on Northern, saying there was no audience. Then the inmates took over the asylum, and Northern is still going strong. What did we know that REC didn't? We knew our audience, and they're what matters. They are our life's blood. THEY are the ones we have to entertain.
If we doggedly cling to the history, the entertainment is lame. If we abandon it entirely, the illusion of the past and the blessed escapism our audience seeks is lost, and again, the entertainment is lame. The real trick is straddling the line. Keeping things entertaining to modern sensibilities, while keeping the illusion of the past alive. We have the ability to do that - to lead as we once did in this genre. We're the original. We can look to our own history to make the Renaissance Faire the spectacular entertainment that inspired hundreds of copies. Or we can try to copy those copies.
Each copy loses a little more of what was special in the first place - in my never-to-be-humble opinion.
. . . and I haven't been to Southern since it was in Devore,
but
In my never-to-be-humble opinion, the audience is what matters. The SCA has no audience. They do their events for themselves. That's all well and good, but it means they don't have to take the audience into account. SCA and ren faires are different animals.
Ren faires are about entertaining a crowd that pays admission & buys goods which support the event. Among other things, I play music at the faires. With the exception of Greensleeves & some madrigals, NONE of the music at faires are period. Even if the lyrics are from that time, the music wasn't recorded until a century later at the earliest. We present an image to take people out of the present & give them a feeling of the past. It's impossible to dot every "i" and cross every "t". The information just isn't there. Even in instances where it is, it's not always desirable. We are not presenting a dry history lesson, we're presenting a renaissance THEMED entertainment.
That being said, the history snobs keep us honest.
The renaissance was a fascinating time in history, with dynamic changes going on in the arts, sciences & world culture. That's why it took off as a theme for an entertainment genre in the first place. There's plenty to draw from that is interesting, entertaining and instructive about the period. It's the snobs that keep us from being a "tie die fair" - from going off the deep end. There was an episode of Futurama where they went to a year 2000 fair. Wild west cowboys on rocket horses were going on a brontosaurus round up. Many renaissance fairs have become just that. Those fairs are copies of LHC's original Renaissance Pleasure Faire. They are what they are, but the audience that grew up on the original is more sophisticated than that, and they crave an escape from the troubles of this modern time. I remember that painful ad campaign that had print ads saying "The man show began in the 16th century", and the radio spots that had the surfer dude saying, "There's beer, & boobs & babes!". They played to a lowest common denominator that wasn't the California audience & wondered why the attendance kept dropping & eventually bailed on Northern, saying there was no audience. Then the inmates took over the asylum, and Northern is still going strong. What did we know that REC didn't? We knew our audience, and they're what matters. They are our life's blood. THEY are the ones we have to entertain.
If we doggedly cling to the history, the entertainment is lame. If we abandon it entirely, the illusion of the past and the blessed escapism our audience seeks is lost, and again, the entertainment is lame. The real trick is straddling the line. Keeping things entertaining to modern sensibilities, while keeping the illusion of the past alive. We have the ability to do that - to lead as we once did in this genre. We're the original. We can look to our own history to make the Renaissance Faire the spectacular entertainment that inspired hundreds of copies. Or we can try to copy those copies.
Each copy loses a little more of what was special in the first place - in my never-to-be-humble opinion.
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 12:04 PMOne of the things I love about the entertainment at Renaissance Faires, even if it's not strictly period, is that it (the good stuff, anyway) has the same spirit as the forms of entertainment that were popular from Ancient times, throughout history, and have become rarer in the modern era. I mean that before television, moves, recorded music etc, live entertainment, including street entertainment, was what it was all about (except for bear baiting, public hangings, etc, but I don't miss that).
I think the spirit of the people who took to the streets as acrobats, traveling musicians, Commedia players, etc, has been handed down to the sort of people who truly love live performance and are willing to travel from Faire to Faire to live the entertainer's life. Some of them have as great a love for historic reenactment as they have for performance, but even those who don't are the descendants of the performers of the past, and since the tradition is a living one, it changes over time.
There are musicians who have studied the songs of the past, and who also write their own original songs in the closest possible approximation of the period style, and who also write songs which are not period, but which evoke the same spirit, whatever it is that they themselves love about that period. There are troupes of actors who do the same with their shows. There are jugglers and acrobats and circus performers who do the same with their performances.
I love them all! -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 12:41 PMDid you have Jose's permission to repost his blog? I think we can discuss how to make our various shows in Northern California better without this. If Jose himself had posted it and begged the discussion that is one thing but I personally don't think it is productive or cool to do this without his knowledge. -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 5:53 PMThe message posted above does not contain Jose's blog post from what I can see. I believe this is just Chris' response to it.
I responded to Jose as well if there is anybody who understands where he and Pax are coming from in defending their faire to the snobs, it's me. I did it for several years as northern began but then I stopped for the most part. Rydell came and saw our faire and now participates when he can. He now supports us and I am not offended when he makes an historical correction here and there. What becomes irritating is people who already have some predisposed bias against an event or company based on their own personal agenda or history. Also, people that spout false assumptions or make statements about events in ignorance, never even having been there.
I for one, enjoy and appreciate helpful historical references and data that are discussed on the Snobs Tribe..........however, lets be clear about a few things; Not everyone on that group is an actual history expert and many people on that group have never even been through the full workshop program at one of the large faires. Sime of them wouldn't even pass costume approval at Northern or Southern. On the flip side, there are also people participating on that Tribe that are brilliant and have much to offer in terms of their knowledge.
But.......and it's a big one...I must correct you Chris, when you say, "It's the history Snobs that keep us honest ."
With all due respect, in the past five years when i have had to go to battle with the Board of Directors or shareholders and especially my boss, fighting to keep historical elements in the forefront...explaining year after year why we should care about costume guidelines or the style and context of stage shows and contract acts, why fantasy guilds like barbarians and fairies and hobbits, etc, etc do not fit in our theme......well there has NEVER been any Snobs standing next to me risking their position fighting that fight. I can't recall any snobs ever being present in the moments that really dictate the decision making at the faire.
It comes down to the companies and the people in charge of making the artistic desicions and who they have to answer to. 99% of all the actors at either of these faires are hoping for and ready to cooperate with higher standards of historical accuracy. It is the people above them and their artisitc ideals or business plan that are shaping the direction of the faires. The snobs are simply armchair quarterbacks sitting back on commenting on the game. They are not the ones making the actual difference. Sorry, but I have the battle wounds to prove it.
Molly
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Fri, April 10, 2009 - 6:43 PMIt's true that we can never perfectly recreate the past--and wouldn't want too, really, or the audience would flee and we'd be arrested. So the appropriate goal does seem to be a fine line wherein we are as entertaining as possible, while making the maximum effort to provide an environment that is historically accurate and educational. It's true that none of these events has ever been 100% period and never will be until someone steps up and invents the holo-deck. Also true: the management of the actual events is the driver of the standards, budgets, and hiring decisions that ultimately determines nearly all of what bears on the historical and artistic integrity of the show.
I don't think Jose intended to converse about what is or is not acceptable at a historically themed event--I took it more as a very understandable defense of an event into which Jose and a larger group of people pour their heart and soul, whatever bones the armchair QBs may have picked with it after the fact. And the problem with the external criticism, however well-intended it may be or however brilliant or historically knowledgeable the source, is that it is not usually based upon the totality of the effort being put forth but rather on impression picked up here or there, or perhaps during the whirlwind of a single day spent on site. It is not informed by the hundreds of real decisions, alluded to by Molly, made by real people, facing real challenges and real limitations--budgetary or otherwise--that are part and parcel of producing the show. It's easy to second guess, but what is being second guessed is a dauntingly complex mosaic of the heartfelt efforts of hundreds or thousands of dedicated performers, merchants, and production staff. It is for this reason that the least measured, and most all-encompassing "artistic" criticisms directed at themed events sometimes ring hollow.
*Disclaimer: my comments should not be interpreted to in any way endorse or defend any particular facet of entertainment at any event, past or present, that has been attacked as being horribly, grossly, frighteningly inappropriate to the historical integrity of the production. :) -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Sat, April 11, 2009 - 10:22 AMThank you Molly and Dre and M and even Chris B.
But honestly, accurate or not, historicley correct or not, we give the people an escape, a different reality, a place to drink, dress strange and be entertained...Not that the drinking part should be a mainstay of it all, but it is part of what they come for. All that aside, if people did not enjoy whatever illusion we give them, would we have been doing this for seven years after REC dropped the ball so to speak. simply put we do what we do because we love it and the people love to come to it. If they didn't we would not make enough money to do it again and again.
I personally am just a participant, I am sort of a black sheep at faire, Known mostly only for the fact that I am there and god help me for this tribe... I have been at it ten years...bet most folks don't know I have been around that long....and yes its changed many times over those years...but that was to suite the public interest and the locale. So we do what we need to to entertain those we serve.
To all that I say Huzzah! -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Sat, April 11, 2009 - 10:50 AM*Kisses Molly* -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Sat, April 11, 2009 - 10:56 AMNow on a personal notye to Chris B. Especially, but to all who wish to post here. THings like this are exceptable under the right situations and considerations, HOWEVER as Moderator of this Tribe and I am sure the others will agree with me. PLEASE, DO NOT inundate us with it on every tribe....I noticed that it got different reviews on another Tribe, but please almost every faire tribe has this post on it...if it was intereesting enough, someone would direct others to it...so Please if you want to bring something like this to our attention? Wonderful, one or two tribes is great, but to flood the Tribe nation with it was overkill of the message.
Thank you for your time....
Your Moderator @ norcalrenfairefolk -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Sat, April 11, 2009 - 11:00 AMHe didn't post it on ours. I feel left out. =( -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Sat, April 11, 2009 - 12:10 PMDidn't mean to leave you out, Rydell, and I didn't mean to over-post. I was tying to straddle the line, (note a theme here? What can I say, I'm a Libra) between overposting and getting multiple perspectives. I only wanted to post it in tribes that were about the entertainment rather than the historical discussion, because my focus is the entertainment.
Dre, I didn't post Jose's blog - only my response to it. I wouldn't repost someone's blog without their consent, but I did want to give credit where credit is due. Jose inspired this thread, and provided the context.
Speaking of context, I didn't know the exact context of the "snobs" in question. When I said the snobs keep us honest, I wasn't thinking of the snarky, snippy, snipey snobs, just the historical sticklers. I got a bit of the snarky type of response in one of the other tribes where I cross posted this, and I'll answer that post there.
Molly, I feel you. As well as yourself, I've had many friends over the years in your position. I've seen it break many brilliant and enthusiastic people. I'm not sure if you're brave or crazy to take the role of entertainment director on. You're where the hammer meets the anvil. You get it from all sides, and you'll never please everybody. I wouldn't take your job for a million dollars, (well, ok, maybe for a million). All the years I've been doing faire, I've (mostly) managed to deftly avoid being director of even a show. I just want to perform with as few headaches as possible. Just the internal politics of the various groups I've performed with have been plenty; thank you very much.
That all being said, I don't want to come across as wishy-washy. I'm pragmatic. That's different. What? It is!
My view is that it's important to maintain the illusion of another place and time, while being engaging to the senses of the modern audience member. Also, there is plenty that is fascinating and engaging about the Renaissance, and we don't have to abandon that fertile ground, (in terms of context - beyond costume) to keep the audience engaged and entertained. Having to filter our performance through that lens make us more creative, and more clever, and makes the product much better - again, in my never-to-be-humble opinion.
But I started this thread to hear yours. ;) -
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By the way. . .
Sat, April 11, 2009 - 12:49 PMMy response to a snarky post is nin the Ren Faire Folk tribe. -
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Re: By the way. . .
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 11:39 AMDan, I'm confused.
You started the thread and the conversation but then you respond several posts down about not innundating Tribe with this discussion. perhaps I missed your meaning.
Rydell, I hope I did not offend you, you big fluffbunny.
Molly -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: By the way. . .
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 2:04 PMMolly, why do you think I smooched you? You brought a needed perspective to the discussion. -
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Re: By the way. . .
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 2:28 PM"My view is that it's important to maintain the illusion of another place and time"
My view is that it's important to maintain the illusion of another SPECIFIC place and time.
Many people make the mistake of thinking that those of us who advocate historicity want a dry, boring, uninteresting show. This is not the case at all. All it takes is a little education and some imagination to remain within the bounds of history (or pretty close) and still make something fun, exciting and accessible to the public. Many of us have been doing just that for a very long time, so we know it can be done.
The other mistake people make is presuming that we'd want to include all the ugly bits of existence at the time; the lack of sanitation, the nasty and brutish realities of life in that age. What we want to do is present what's best about the era...and there's plenty of that to present. To say that, just because we don't have open sewers in the streets we shouldn't bother having anything else be historical is simply a fallacious argument.
I also see no need to underestimate the intelligence of our public. I think they can handle a little challenge, otherwise they'd stay home and watch "Survivor". I think it's insulting to short change them.
And now I'll go back to my own tribe where I none of you have to listen to me.
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Re: By the way. . .
Mon, July 20, 2009 - 4:07 PMOh Rydell
You know you just wanted to kiss Molly...
ok back to the topic at hand...
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: By the way. . .
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 5:43 PMSorry Love ya Molly, confusion aside, first post I was agreeing about the illusion we present and how accurate or inaccurate we are about it all. Then I found the same post in several places and commented on how it seemed a little crazy to post it everywhere when folks could be directed to one or two tribes for it. I guess Chris wanted a larger audience. But I was also commenting on the reposting (which wasn't the case) of someones blog. Anyway sorry if I confused ya with my ramblings on the subject. -
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Re: By the way. . .
Sun, April 12, 2009 - 5:55 PMRatehr than get long winded...I now realize there was a reason for the mulit-postings. Sorry I guess I had a moment of over zealous moderating.
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 1:39 PMThanks for clarifying that Chris. I spoke to Jose as well. I am one of the people that have moved to Facebook primarily so only check in on Tribe once a week or so. (If it is even up)
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Mon, April 20, 2009 - 10:10 PMI am a Sci Fi geek and a audience member at many a faire. I am a lame history snob and an enthusiast of the entertainment. That being said, I enjoy my personal nit picking. I enjoy seeing today’s pop culture turned on its head in a reference to days of yore. I enjoy dressing up in a Hawaiian shirt and shorts and flip flops wondering around yelling for the arch and trying to get the computer to remove the digital watch from the pirate. I enjoy my bad hologram program and would less enjoy myself if it took it self too seriously. -
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Re: Jose's mild rant - reposted from reply to his blog. - In hopes of spurring a dialogue to make our show better.
Tue, April 21, 2009 - 11:13 AMHUAZZAH to DJ...well put and I loved the whole Idea that faire is a holodeck program...hee hee tourist on a holodeck....snicker.
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